Since，then，thepleasuresofeachclassandthelifeofeachareindispute，andthequestionisnotwhichlifeismoreorlesshonourable，orbetterorworse，butwhichisthemorepleasantorpainless——howshallweknowwhospeakstruly？
Icannotmyselftell，hesaid。
Well，butwhatoughttobethecriterion？Isanybetterthanexperienceandwisdomandreason？
Therecannotbeabetter，hesaid。
Then，Isaid，reflect。Ofthethreeindividuals，whichhasthegreatestexperienceofallthepleasureswhichweenumerated？Hastheloverofgain，inlearningthenatureofessentialtruth，greaterexperienceofthepleasureofknowledgethanthephilosopherhasofthepleasureofgain？
Thephilosopher，hereplied，hasgreatlytheadvantage；forhehasofnecessityalwaysknownthetasteoftheotherpleasuresfromhischildhoodupwards：buttheloverofgaininallhisexperiencehasnotofnecessitytasted——or，Ishouldrathersay，evenhadhedesired，couldhardlyhavetasted——thesweetnessoflearningandknowingtruth。
Thentheloverofwisdomhasagreatadvantageovertheloverofgain，forhehasadoubleexperience？
Yes，verygreat。
Again，hashegreaterexperienceofthepleasuresofhonour，ortheloverofhonourofthepleasuresofwisdom？
Nay，hesaid，allthreearehonouredinproportionastheyattaintheirobject；fortherichmanandthebravemanandthewisemanalikehavetheircrowdofadmirers，andastheyallreceivehonourtheyallhaveexperienceofthepleasuresofhonour；butthedelightwhichistobefoundintheknowledgeoftruebeingisknowntothephilosopheronly。
Hisexperience，then，willenablehimtojudgebetterthananyone？
Farbetter。
Andheistheonlyonewhohaswisdomaswellasexperience？
Certainly。
Further，theveryfacultywhichistheinstrumentofjudgmentisnotpossessedbythecovetousorambitiousman，butonlybythephilosopher？
Whatfaculty？
Reason，withwhom，asweweresaying，thedecisionoughttorest。
Yes。
Andreasoningispeculiarlyhisinstrument？
Certainly。
Ifwealthandgainwerethecriterion，thenthepraiseorblameoftheloverofgainwouldsurelybethemosttrustworthy？
Assuredly。
Orifhonourorvictoryorcourage，inthatcasethejudgementoftheambitiousorpugnaciouswouldbethetruest？
Clearly。
Butsinceexperienceandwisdomandreasonarethejudges——
Theonlyinferencepossible，hereplied，isthatpleasureswhichareapprovedbytheloverofwisdomandreasonarethetruest。
Andsowearriveattheresult，thatthepleasureoftheintelligentpartofthesoulisthepleasantestofthethree，andthatheofusinwhomthisistherulingprinciplehasthepleasantestlife。
Unquestionably，hesaid，thewisemanspeakswithauthoritywhenheapprovesofhisownlife。
Andwhatdoesthejudgeaffirmtobethelifewhichisnext，andthepleasurewhichisnext？
Clearlythatofthesoldierandloverofhonour；whoisnearertohimselfthanthemoney—maker。
Lastcomestheloverofgain？
Verytrue，hesaid。
Twiceinsuccession，then，hasthejustmanoverthrowntheunjustinthisconflict；andnowcomesthethirdtrial，whichisdedicatedtoOlympianZeusthesaviour：asagewhispersinmyearthatnopleasureexceptthatofthewiseisquitetrueandpure——allothersareashadowonly；andsurelythiswillprovethegreatestandmostdecisiveoffalls？
Yes，thegreatest；butwillyouexplainyourself？
Iwillworkoutthesubjectandyoushallanswermyquestions。
Proceed。
Say，then，isnotpleasureopposedtopain？
True。
Andthereisaneutralstatewhichisneitherpleasurenorpain？
Thereis。
Astatewhichisintermediate，andasortofreposeofthesoulabouteither——thatiswhatyoumean？
Yes。
Yourememberwhatpeoplesaywhentheyaresick？
Whatdotheysay？
Thatafterallnothingispleasanterthanhealth。Butthentheyneverknewthistobethegreatestofpleasuresuntiltheywereill。
Yes，Iknow，hesaid。
Andwhenpersonsaresufferingfromacutepain，youmust。haveheardthemsaythatthereisnothingpleasanterthantogetridoftheirpain？
Ihave。
Andtherearemanyothercasesofsufferinginwhichthemererestandcessationofpain，andnotanypositiveenjoyment，isextolledbythemasthegreatestpleasure？
Yes，hesaid；atthetimetheyarepleasedandwellcontenttobeatrest。
Again，whenpleasureceases，thatsortofrestorcessationwillbepainful？
Doubtless，hesaid。
Thentheintermediatestateofrestwillbepleasureandwillalsobepain？
Soitwouldseem。
Butcanthatwhichisneitherbecomeboth？
Ishouldsaynot。
Andbothpleasureandpainaremotionsofthesoul，aretheynot？
Yes。
Butthatwhichisneitherwasjustnowshowntoberestandnotmotion，andinameanbetweenthem？
Yes。
How，then，canweberightinsupposingthattheabsenceofpainispleasure，orthattheabsenceofpleasureispain？
Impossible。
Thisthenisanappearanceonlyandnotareality；thatistcsay，therestispleasureatthemomentandincomparisonofwhatispainful，andpainfulincomparisonofwhatispleasant；butalltheserepresentations，whentriedbythetestoftruepleasure，arenotrealbutasortofimposition？
Thatistheinference。
Lookattheotherclassofpleasureswhichhavenoantecedentpainsandyouwillnolongersuppose，asyouperhapsmayatpresent，thatpleasureisonlythecessationofpain，orpainofpleasure。
Whatarethey，hesaid，andwhereshallIfindthem？
Therearemanyofthem：takeasanexamplethepleasures，ofsmell，whichareverygreatandhavenoantecedentpains；theycomeinamoment，andwhentheydepartleavenopainbehindthem。
Mosttrue，hesaid。
Letusnot，then，beinducedtobelievethatpurepleasureisthecessationofpain，orpainofpleasure。
No。
Still，themorenumerousandviolentpleasureswhichreachthesoulthroughthebodyaregenerallyofthissort——theyarereliefsofpain。
Thatistrue。
Andtheanticipationsoffuturepleasuresandpainsareofalikenature？
Yes。
ShallIgiveyouanillustrationofthem？
Letmehear。
Youwouldallow，Isaid，thatthereisinnatureanupperandlowerandmiddleregion？
Ishould。
Andifapersonweretogofromthelowertothemiddleregion，wouldhenotimaginethatheisgoingup；andhewhoisstandinginthemiddleandseeswhencehehascome，wouldimaginethatheisalreadyintheupperregion，ifhehasneverseenthetrueupperworld？
Tobesure，hesaid；howcanhethinkotherwise？
Butifheweretakenbackagainhewouldimagine，andtrulyimagine，thathewasdescending？
Nodoubt。
Allthatwouldariseoutofhisignoranceofthetrueupperandmiddleandlowerregions？
Yes。
Thencanyouwonderthatpersonswhoareinexperiencedinthetruth，astheyhavewrongideasaboutmanyotherthings，shouldalsohavewrongideasaboutpleasureandpainandtheintermediatestate；sothatwhentheyareonlybeingdrawntowardsthepainfultheyfeelpainandthinkthepainwhichtheyexperiencetobereal，andinlikemanner，whendrawnawayfrompaintotheneutralorintermediatestate，theyfirmlybelievethattheyhavereachedthegoalofsatietyandpleasure；they，notknowingpleasure，errincontrastingpainwiththeabsenceofpain。whichislikecontrastingblackwithgreyinsteadofwhite——canyouwonder，Isay，atthis？
No，indeed；Ishouldbemuchmoredisposedtowonderattheopposite。
Lookatthematterthus：——Hunger，thirst，andthelike，areinanitionsofthebodilystate？
Yes。
Andignoranceandfollyareinanitionsofthesoul？
True。
Andfoodandwisdomarethecorrespondingsatisfactionsofeither？
Certainly。
Andisthesatisfactionderivedfromthatwhichhaslessorfromthatwhichhasmoreexistencethetruer？
Clearly，fromthatwhichhasmore。
Whatclassesofthingshaveagreatershareofpureexistenceinyourjudgment——thoseofwhichfoodanddrinkandcondimentsandallkindsofsustenanceareexamples，ortheclasswhichcontainstrueopinionandknowledgeandmindandallthedifferentkindsofvirtue？Putthequestioninthisway：——Whichhasamorepurebeing——thatwhichisconcernedwiththeinvariable，theimmortal，andthetrue，andisofsuchanature，andisfoundinsuchnatures；orthatwhichisconcernedwithandfoundinthevariableandmortal，andisitselfvariableandmortal？
Farpurer，hereplied，isthebeingofthatwhichisconcernedwiththeinvariable。
Anddoestheessenceoftheinvariablepartakeofknowledgeinthesamedegreeasofessence？
Yes，ofknowledgeinthesamedegree。
Andoftruthinthesamedegree？
Yes。
And，conversely，thatwhichhaslessoftruthwillalsohavelessofessence？
Necessarily。
Then，ingeneral，thosekindsofthingswhichareintheserviceofthebodyhavelessoftruthandessencethanthosewhichareintheserviceofthesoul？
Farless。
Andhasnotthebodyitselflessoftruthandessencethanthesoul？
Yes。
Whatisfilledwithmorerealexistence，andactuallyhasamorerealexistence，ismorereallyfilledthanthatwhichisfilledwithlessrealexistenceandislessreal？
Ofcourse。
Andiftherebeapleasureinbeingfilledwiththatwhichisaccordingtonature，thatwhichismorereallyfilledwithmorerealbeingwillmorereallyandtrulyenjoytruepleasure；whereasthatwhichparticipatesinlessrealbeingwillbelesstrulyandsurelysatisfied，andwillparticipateinanillusoryandlessrealpleasure？
Unquestionably。
Thosethenwhoknownotwisdomandvirtue，andarealwaysbusywithgluttonyandsensuality，godownandupagainasfarasthemean；
andinthisregiontheymoveatrandomthroughoutlife，buttheyneverpassintothetrueupperworld；thithertheyneitherlook，nordotheyeverfindtheirway，neitheraretheytrulyfilledwithtruebeing，nordotheytasteofpureandabidingpleasure。Likecattle，withtheireyesalwayslookingdownandtheirheadsstoopingtotheearth，thatis，tothedining—table，theyfattenandfeedandbreed，and，intheirexcessiveloveofthesedelights，theykickandbuttatoneanotherwithhornsandhoofswhicharemadeofiron；andtheykilloneanotherbyreasonoftheirinsatiablelust。Fortheyfillthemselveswiththatwhichisnotsubstantial，andthepartofthemselveswhichtheyfillisalsounsubstantialandincontinent。
Verily，Socrates，saidGlaucon，youdescribethelifeofthemanylikeanoracle。
Theirpleasuresaremixedwithpains——howcantheybeotherwise？
Fortheyaremereshadowsandpicturesofthetrue，andarecolouredbycontrast，whichexaggeratesbothlightandshade，andsotheyimplantinthemindsoffoolsinsanedesiresofthemselves；andtheyarefoughtaboutasStesichorussaysthattheGreeksfoughtabouttheshadowofHelenatTroyinignoranceofthetruth。
Somethingofthatsortmustinevitablyhappen。
Andmustnotthelikehappenwiththespiritedorpassionateelementofthesoul？Willnotthepassionatemanwhocarrieshispassionintoaction，beinthelikecase，whetherheisenviousandambitious，orviolentandcontentious，orangryanddiscontented，ifhebeseekingtoattainhonourandvictoryandthesatisfactionofhisangerwithoutreasonorsense？
Yes，hesaid，thesamewillhappenwiththespiritedelementalso。
Thenmaywenotconfidentlyassertthattheloversofmoneyandhonour，whentheyseektheirpleasuresundertheguidanceandinthecompanyofreasonandknowledge，andpursueafterandwinthepleasureswhichwisdomshowsthem，willalsohavethetruestpleasuresinthehighestdegreewhichisattainabletothem，inasmuchastheyfollowtruth；andtheywillhavethepleasureswhicharenaturaltothem，ifthatwhichisbestforeachoneisalsomostnaturaltohim？
Yes，certainly；thebestisthemostnatural。
Andwhenthewholesoulfollowsthephilosophicalprinciple，andthereisnodivision，theseveralpartsarejust，anddoeachofthemtheirownbusiness，andenjoyseverallythebestandtruestpleasuresofwhichtheyarecapable？
Exactly。
Butwheneitherofthetwootherprinciplesprevails，itfailsinattainingitsownpleasure，andcompelstheresttopursueafterapleasurewhichisashadowonlyandwhichisnottheirown？
True。
Andthegreatertheintervalwhichseparatesthemfromphilosophyandreason，themorestrangeandillusivewillbethepleasure？
Yes。
Andisnotthatfarthestfromreasonwhichisatthegreatestdistancefromlawandorder？
Clearly。
Andthelustfulandtyrannicaldesiresare，aswesaw，atthegreatestdistance？Yes。
Andtheroyalandorderlydesiresarenearest？
Yes。
Thenthetyrantwillliveatthegreatestdistancefromtrueornaturalpleasure，andthekingattheleast？
Certainly。
Butifso，thetyrantwilllivemostunpleasantly，andthekingmostpleasantly？
Inevitably。
Wouldyouknowthemeasureoftheintervalwhichseparatesthem？
Willyoutellme？
Thereappeartobethreepleasures，onegenuineandtwospurious：
nowthetransgressionofthetyrantreachesapointbeyondthespurious；hehasrunawayfromtheregionoflawandreason，andtakenuphisabodewithcertainslavepleasureswhicharehissatellites，andthemeasureofhisinferioritycanonlybeexpressedinafigure。
Howdoyoumean？
Iassume，Isaid，thatthetyrantisinthethirdplacefromtheoligarch；thedemocratwasinthemiddle？
Yes。
Andifthereistruthinwhathaspreceded，hewillbeweddedtoanimageofpleasurewhichisthriceremovedastotruthfromthepleasureoftheoligarch？
Hewill。
Andtheoligarchisthirdfromtheroyal；sincewecountasoneroyalandaristocratical？
Yes，heisthird。
Thenthetyrantisremovedfromtruepleasurebythespaceofanumberwhichisthreetimesthree？
Manifestly。
Theshadowthenoftyrannicalpleasuredeterminedbythenumberoflengthwillbeaplanefigure。
Certainly。
Andifyouraisethepowerandmaketheplaneasolid，thereisnodifficultyinseeinghowvastistheintervalbywhichthetyrantispartedfromtheking。
Yes；thearithmeticianwilleasilydothesum。
Orifsomepersonbeginsattheotherendandmeasurestheintervalbywhichthekingispartedfromthetyrantintruthofpleasure，hewillfindhim，whenthemultiplicationiscomplete，living729timesmorepleasantly，andthetyrantmorepainfullybythissameinterval。
Whatawonderfulcalculation！Andhowenormousisthedistancewhichseparatesthejustfromtheunjustinregardtopleasureandpain！
Yetatruecalculation，Isaid，andanumberwhichnearlyconcernshumanlife，ifhumanbeingsareconcernedwithdaysandnightsandmonthsandyears。
Yes，hesaid，humanlifeiscertainlyconcernedwiththem。
Thenifthegoodandjustmanbethussuperiorinpleasuretotheevilandunjust，hissuperioritywillbeinfinitelygreaterinproprietyoflifeandinbeautyandvirtue？
Immeasurablygreater。
Well，Isaid，andnowhavingarrivedatthisstageoftheargument，wemayreverttothewordswhichbroughtushither：Wasnotsomeonesayingthatinjusticewasagaintotheperfectlyunjustwhowasreputedtobejust？
Yes，thatwassaid。
Nowthen，havingdeterminedthepowerandqualityofjusticeandinjustice，letushavealittleconversationwithhim。
Whatshallwesaytohim？
Letusmakeanimageofthesoul，thathemayhavehisownwordspresentedbeforehiseyes。
Ofwhatsort？
Anidealimageofthesoul，likethecompositecreationsofancientmythology，suchastheChimeraorScyllaorCerberus，andtherearemanyothersinwhichtwoormoredifferentnaturesaresaidtogrowintoone。
Therearesaidofhavebeensuchunions。
Thendoyounowmodeltheformofamultitudinous，many—headedmonster，havingaringofheadsofallmannerofbeasts，tameandwild，whichheisabletogenerateandmetamorphoseatwill。
Yousupposemarvellouspowersintheartist；but，aslanguageismorepliablethanwaxoranysimilarsubstance，lettherebesuchamodelasyoupropose。
Supposenowthatyoumakeasecondformasofalion，andathirdofaman，thesecondsmallerthanthefirst，andthethirdsmallerthanthesecond。
That，hesaid，isaneasiertask；andIhavemadethemasyousay。
Andnowjointhem，andletthethreegrowintoone。
Thathasbeenaccomplished。
Nextfashiontheoutsideofthemintoasingleimage，asofaman，sothathewhoisnotabletolookwithin，andseesonlytheouterhull，maybelievethebeasttobeasinglehumancreature。Ihavedoneso，hesaid。
Andnow，tohimwhomaintainsthatitisprofitableforthehumancreaturetobeunjust，andunprofitabletobejust，letusreplythat，ifheberight，itisprofitableforthiscreaturetofeastthemultitudinousmonsterandstrengthenthelionandthelion—likequalities，buttostarveandweakentheman，whoisconsequentlyliabletobedraggedaboutatthemercyofeitheroftheothertwo；
andheisnottoattempttofamiliarizeorharmonizethemwithoneanother——heoughtrathertosufferthemtofightandbiteanddevouroneanother。
Certainly，hesaid；thatiswhattheapproverofinjusticesays。
Tohimthesupporterofjusticemakesanswerthatheshouldeversospeakandactastogivethemanwithinhiminsomewayorotherthemostcompletemasteryovertheentirehumancreature。
Heshouldwatchoverthemany—headedmonsterlikeagoodhusbandman，fosteringandcultivatingthegentlequalities，andpreventingthewildonesfromgrowing；heshouldbemakingthelion—hearthisally，andincommoncareofthemallshouldbeunitingtheseveralpartswithoneanotherandwithhimself。
Yes，hesaid，thatisquitewhatthemaintainerofjusticesay。
Andsofromeverypointofview，whetherofpleasure，honour，oradvantage，theapproverofjusticeisrightandspeaksthetruth，andthedisapproveriswrongandfalseandignorant。
Yes，fromeverypointofview。
Come，now，andletusgentlyreasonwiththeunjust，whoisnotintentionallyinerror。’SweetSir，’wewillsaytohim，whatthinkyouofthingsesteemednobleandignoble？Isnotthenoblethatwhichsubjectsthebeasttotheman，orrathertothegodinman；
andtheignoblethatwhichsubjectsthemantothebeast？’Hecanhardlyavoidsayingyes——canhenow？
Notifhehasanyregardformyopinion。
But，ifheagreesofar，wemayaskhimtoansweranotherquestion：’Thenhowwouldamanprofitifhereceivedgoldandsilverontheconditionthathewastoenslavethenoblestpartofhimtotheworst？Whocanimaginethatamanwhosoldhissonordaughterintoslaveryformoney，especiallyifhesoldthemintothehandsoffierceandevilmen，wouldbethegainer，howeverlargemightbethesumwhichhereceived？Andwillanyonesaythatheisnotamiserablecaitiffwhoremorselesslysellshisowndivinebeingtothatwhichismostgodlessanddetestable？Eriphyletookthenecklaceasthepriceofherhusband’slife，butheistakingabribeinordertocompassaworseruin。’
Yes，saidGlaucon，farworse——Iwillanswerforhim。
Hasnottheintemperatebeencensuredofold，becauseinhimthehugemultiformmonsterisallowedtobetoomuchatlarge？
Clearly。
Andmenareblamedforprideandbadtemperwhenthelionandserpentelementinthemdisproportionatelygrowsandgainsstrength？
Yes。
Andluxuryandsoftnessareblamed，becausetheyrelaxandweakenthissamecreature，andmakeacowardofhim？
Verytrue。