ButImustalsoremindyou，thatthepowerofdialecticalonecanrevealthis，andonlytoonewhoisadiscipleoftheprevioussciences。
Ofthatassertionyoumaybeasconfidentasofthelast。
Andassuredlynoonewillarguethatthereisanyothermethodofcomprehendingbyanyregularprocessalltrueexistenceorofascertainingwhateachthingisinitsownnature；fortheartsingeneralareconcernedwiththedesiresoropinionsofmen，orarecultivatedwithaviewtoproductionandconstruction，orforthepreservationofsuchproductionsandconstructions；andastothemathematicalscienceswhich，asweweresaying，havesomeapprehensionoftruebeing——geometryandthelike——theyonlydreamaboutbeing，butnevercantheybeholdthewakingrealitysolongastheyleavethehypotheseswhichtheyuseunexamined，andareunabletogiveanaccountofthem。Forwhenamanknowsnothisownfirstprinciple，andwhentheconclusionandintermediatestepsarealsoconstructedoutofheknowsnotwhat，howcanheimaginethatsuchafabricofconventioncaneverbecomescience？
Impossible，hesaid。
Thendialectic，anddialecticalone，goesdirectlytothefirstprincipleandistheonlysciencewhichdoesawaywithhypothesesinordertomakehergroundsecure；theeyeofthesoul，whichisliterallyburiedinanoutlandishslough，isbyhergentleaidliftedupwards；andsheusesashandmaidsandhelpersintheworkofconversion，thescienceswhichwehavebeendiscussing。Customtermsthemsciences，buttheyoughttohavesomeothername，implyinggreaterclearnessthanopinionandlessclearnessthanscience：andthis，inourprevioussketch，wascalledunderstanding。Butwhyshouldwedisputeaboutnameswhenwehaverealitiesofsuchimportancetoconsider？
Whyindeed，hesaid，whenanynamewilldowhichexpressesthethoughtofthemindwithclearness？
Atanyrate，wearesatisfied，asbefore，tohavefourdivisions；
twoforintellectandtwoforopinion，andtocallthefirstdivisionscience，thesecondunderstanding，thethirdbelief，andthefourthperceptionofshadows，opinionbeingconcernedwithbecoming，andintellectwithbeing；andsotomakeaproportion：——
Asbeingistobecoming，soispureintellecttoopinion。
Andasintellectistoopinion，soissciencetobelief，andunderstandingtotheperceptionofshadows。
Butletusdeferthefurthercorrelationandsubdivisionofthesubjectsofopinionandofintellect，foritwillbealongenquiry，manytimeslongerthanthishasbeen。
AsfarasIunderstand，hesaid，Iagree。
Anddoyoualsoagree，Isaid，indescribingthedialecticianasonewhoattainsaconceptionoftheessenceofeachthing？Andhewhodoesnotpossessandisthereforeunabletoimpartthisconception，inwhateverdegreehefails，mayinthatdegreealsobesaidtofailinintelligence？Willyouadmitsomuch？
Yes，hesaid；howcanIdenyit？
Andyouwouldsaythesameoftheconceptionofthegood？
Untilthepersonisabletoabstractanddefinerationallytheideaofgood，andunlesshecanrunthegauntletofallobjections，andisreadytodisprovethem，notbyappealstoopinion，buttoabsolutetruth，neverfalteringatanystepoftheargument——unlesshecandoallthis，youwouldsaythatheknowsneithertheideaofgoodnoranyothergood；heapprehendsonlyashadow，ifanythingatall，whichisgivenbyopinionandnotbyscience；——dreamingandslumberinginthislife，beforeheiswellawakehere，hearrivesattheworldbelow，andhashisfinalquietus。
InallthatIshouldmostcertainlyagreewithyou。
AndsurelyyouwouldnothavethechildrenofyouridealState，whomyouarenurturingandeducating——iftheidealeverbecomesareality——youwouldnotallowthefuturerulerstobelikeposts，havingnoreasoninthem，andyettobesetinauthorityoverthehighestmatters？
Certainlynot。
Thenyouwillmakealawthattheyshallhavesuchaneducationaswillenablethemtoattainthegreatestskillinaskingandansweringquestions？
Yes，hesaid，youandItogetherwillmakeit。
Dialectic，then，asyouwillagree，isthecoping—stoneofthesciences，andissetoverthem；noothersciencecanbeplacedhigher——thenatureofknowledgecannofurthergo？
Iagree，hesaid。
Buttowhomwearetoassignthesestudies，andinwhatwaytheyaretobeassigned，arequestionswhichremaintobeconsidered？
Yes，clearly。
Youremember，Isaid，howtherulerswerechosenbefore？
Certainly，hesaid。
Thesamenaturesmuststillbechosen，andthepreferenceagaingiventothesurestandthebravest，and，ifpossible，tothefairest；
and，havingnobleandgeneroustempers，theyshouldalsohavethenaturalgiftswhichwillfacilitatetheireducation。
Andwhatarethese？
Suchgiftsaskeennessandreadypowersofacquisition；forthemindmoreoftenfaintsfromtheseverityofstudythanfromtheseverityofgymnastics：thetoilismoreentirelythemind’sown，andisnotsharedwiththebody。
Verytrue，hereplied。
Further，heofwhomweareinsearchshouldhaveagoodmemory，andbeanunweariedsolidmanwhoisaloveroflabourinanyline；orhewillneverbeabletoendurethegreatamountofbodilyexerciseandtogothroughalltheintellectualdisciplineandstudywhichwerequireofhim。
Certainly，hesaid；hemusthavenaturalgifts。
Themistakeatpresentis，thatthosewhostudyphilosophyhavenovocation，andthis，asIwasbeforesaying，isthereasonwhyshehasfallenintodisrepute：hertruesonsshouldtakeherbythehandandnotbastards。
Whatdoyoumean？
Inthefirstplace，hervotaryshouldnothavealameorhaltingindustry——Imean，thatheshouldnotbehalfindustriousandhalfidle：as，forexample，whenamanisaloverofgymnasticandhunting，andallotherbodilyexercises，butahaterratherthanaloverofthelabouroflearningorlisteningorenquiring。Ortheoccupationtowhichhedevoteshimselfmaybeofanoppositekind，andhemayhavetheothersortoflameness。
Certainly，hesaid。
Andastotruth，Isaid，isnotasoulequallytobedeemedhaltandlamewhichhatesvoluntaryfalsehoodandisextremelyindignantatherselfandotherswhentheytelllies，butispatientofinvoluntaryfalsehood，anddoesnotmindwallowinglikeaswinishbeastinthemireofignorance，andhasnoshameatbeingdetected？
Tobesure。
And，again，inrespectoftemperance，courage，magnificence，andeveryothervirtue，shouldwenotcarefullydistinguishbetweenthetruesonandthebastard？forwherethereisnodiscernmentofsuchqualitiesStatesandindividualsunconsciouslyerrandtheStatemakesaruler，andtheindividualafriend，ofonewho，beingdefectiveinsomepartofvirtue，isinafigurelameorabastard。
Thatisverytrue，hesaid。
Allthesethings，then，willhavetobecarefullyconsideredbyus；andifonlythosewhomweintroducetothisvastsystemofeducationandtrainingaresoundinbodyandmind，justiceherselfwillhavenothingtosayagainstus，andweshallbethesavioursoftheconstitutionandoftheState；but，ifourpupilsaremenofanotherstamp，thereversewillhappen，andweshallpourastillgreaterfloodofridiculeonphilosophythanshehastoendureatpresent。
Thatwouldnotbecreditable。
Certainlynot，Isaid；andyetperhaps，inthusturningjestintoearnestIamequallyridiculous。
Inwhatrespect？
Ihadforgotten，Isaid，thatwewerenotserious，andspokewithtoomuchexcitement。ForwhenIsawphilosophysoundeservedlytrampledunderfootofmenIcouldnothelpfeelingasortofindignationattheauthorsofherdisgrace：andmyangermademetoovehement。
Indeed！Iwaslistening，anddidnotthinkso。
ButI，whoamthespeaker，feltthatIwas。Andnowletmeremindyouthat，althoughinourformerselectionwechoseoldmen，wemustnotdosointhis。Solonwasunderadelusionwhenhesaidthatamanwhenhegrowsoldmaylearnmanythings——forhecannomorelearnmuchthanhecanrunmuch；youthisthetimeforanyextraordinarytoil。
Ofcourse。
And，therefore，calculationandgeometryandalltheotherelementsofinstruction，whichareapreparationfordialectic，shouldbepresentedtothemindinchildhood；not，however，underanynotionofforcingoursystemofeducation。
Whynot？
Becauseafreemanoughtnottobeaslaveintheacquisitionofknowledgeofanykind。Bodilyexercise，whencompulsory，doesnoharmtothebody；butknowledgewhichisacquiredundercompulsionobtainsnoholdonthemind。
Verytrue。
Then，mygoodfriend，Isaid，donotusecompulsion，butletearlyeducationbeasortofamusement；youwillthenbebetterabletofindoutthenaturalbent。
Thatisaveryrationalnotion，hesaid。
Doyourememberthatthechildren，too，weretobetakentoseethebattleonhorseback；andthatiftherewerenodangertheyweretobebroughtcloseupand，likeyounghounds，haveatasteofbloodgiventhem？
Yes，Iremember。
Thesamepracticemaybefollowed，Isaid，inallthesethings——labours，lessons，dangers——andhewhoismostathomeinallofthemoughttobeenrolledinaselectnumber。
Atwhatage？
Attheagewhenthenecessarygymnasticsareover：theperiodwhetheroftwoorthreeyearswhichpassesinthissortoftrainingisuselessforanyotherpurpose；forsleepandexerciseareunpropitioustolearning；andthetrialofwhoisfirstingymnasticexercisesisoneofthemostimportantteststowhichouryoutharesubjected。
Certainly，hereplied。
Afterthattimethosewhoareselectedfromtheclassoftwentyyearsoldwillbepromotedtohigherhonour，andthescienceswhichtheylearnedwithoutanyorderintheirearlyeducationwillnowbebroughttogether，andtheywillbeabletoseethenaturalrelationshipofthemtooneanotherandtotruebeing。
Yes，hesaid，thatistheonlykindofknowledgewhichtakeslastingroot。
Yes，Isaid；andthecapacityforsuchknowledgeisthegreatcriterionofdialecticaltalent：thecomprehensivemindisalwaysthedialectical。
Iagreewithyou，hesaid。
These，Isaid，arethepointswhichyoumustconsider；andthosewhohavemostofthiscomprehension，andwhoaremoresteadfastintheirlearning，andintheirmilitaryandotherappointedduties，whentheyhavearrivedattheageofthirtyhavetobechosenbyyououtoftheselectclass，andelevatedtohigherhonour；andyouwillhavetoprovethembythehelpofdialectic，inordertolearnwhichofthemisabletogiveuptheuseofsightandtheothersenses，andincompanywithtruthtoattainabsolutebeing：Andhere，myfriend，greatcautionisrequired。
Whygreatcaution？
Doyounotremark，Isaid，howgreatistheevilwhichdialectichasintroduced？
Whatevil？hesaid。
Thestudentsoftheartarefilledwithlawlessness。
Quitetrue，hesaid。
Doyouthinkthatthereisanythingsoveryunnaturalorinexcusableintheircase？orwillyoumakeallowanceforthem？
Inwhatwaymakeallowance？
Iwantyou，Isaid，bywayofparallel，toimagineasupposititioussonwhoisbroughtupingreatwealth；heisoneofagreatandnumerousfamily，andhasmanyflatterers。Whenhegrowsuptomanhood，helearnsthathisallegedarenothisrealparents；butwhotherealareheisunabletodiscover。Canyouguesshowhewillbelikelytobehavetowardshisflatterersandhissupposedparents，firstofallduringtheperiodwhenheisignorantofthefalserelation，andthenagainwhenheknows？OrshallIguessforyou？
Ifyouplease。
ThenIshouldsay，thatwhileheisignorantofthetruthhewillbelikelytohonourhisfatherandhismotherandhissupposedrelationsmorethantheflatterers；hewillbelessinclinedtoneglectthemwheninneed，ortodoorsayanythingagainstthem；
andhewillbelesswillingtodisobeytheminanyimportantmatter。
Hewill。
Butwhenhehasmadethediscovery，Ishouldimaginethathewoulddiminishhishonourandregardforthem，andwouldbecomemoredevotedtotheflatterers；theirinfluenceoverhimwouldgreatlyincrease；hewouldnowliveaftertheirways，andopenlyassociatewiththem，and，unlesshewereofanunusuallygooddisposition，hewouldtroublehimselfnomoreabouthissupposedparentsorotherrelations。
Well，allthatisveryprobable。Buthowistheimageapplicabletothedisciplesofphilosophy？
Inthisway：youknowthattherearecertainprinciplesaboutjusticeandhonour，whichweretaughtusinchildhood，andundertheirparentalauthoritywehavebeenbroughtup，obeyingandhonouringthem。
Thatistrue。
Therearealsooppositemaximsandhabitsofpleasurewhichflatterandattractthesoul，butdonotinfluencethoseofuswhohaveanysenseofright，andtheycontinuetoobeyandhonourthemaximsoftheirfathers。
True。
Now，whenamanisinthisstate，andthequestioningspiritaskswhatisfairorhonourable，andheanswersasthelegislatorhastaughthim，andthenargumentsmanyanddiverserefutehiswords，untilheisdrivenintobelievingthatnothingishonourableanymorethandishonourable，orjustandgoodanymorethanthereverse，andsoofallthenotionswhichhemostvalued，doyouthinkthathewillstillhonourandobeythemasbefore？
Impossible。
Andwhenheceasestothinkthemhonourableandnaturalasheretofore，andhefailstodiscoverthetrue，canhebeexpectedtopursueanylifeotherthanthatwhichflattershisdesires？
Hecannot。
Andfrombeingakeeperofthelawheisconvertedintoabreakerofit？
Unquestionably。
NowallthisisverynaturalinstudentsofphilosophysuchasI
havedescribed，andalso，asIwasjustnowsaying，mostexcusable。
Yes，hesaid；and，Imayadd，pitiable。
Therefore，thatyourfeelingsmaynotbemovedtopityaboutourcitizenswhoarenowthirtyyearsofage，everycaremustbetakeninintroducingthemtodialectic。
Certainly。
Thereisadangerlesttheyshouldtastethedeardelighttooearly；
foryoungsters，asyoumayhaveobserved，whentheyfirstgetthetasteintheirmouths，argueforamusement，andarealwayscontradictingandrefutingothersinimitationofthosewhorefutethem；likepuppy—dogs，theyrejoiceinpullingandtearingatallwhocomenearthem。
Yes，hesaid，thereisnothingwhichtheylikebetter。
Andwhentheyhavemademanyconquestsandreceiveddefeatsatthehandsofmany，theyviolentlyandspeedilygetintoawayofnotbelievinganythingwhichtheybelievedbefore，andhence，notonlythey，butphilosophyandallthatrelatestoitisapttohaveabadnamewiththerestoftheworld。
Tootrue，hesaid。
Butwhenamanbeginstogetolder，hewillnolongerbeguiltyofsuchinsanity；hewillimitatethedialecticianwhoisseekingfortruth，andnottheeristic，whoiscontradictingforthesakeofamusement；andthegreatermoderationofhischaracterwillincreaseinsteadofdiminishingthehonourofthepursuit。
Verytrue，hesaid。
Anddidwenotmakespecialprovisionforthis，whenwesaidthatthedisciplesofphilosophyweretobeorderlyandsteadfast，not，asnow，anychanceaspirantorintruder？
Verytrue。
Suppose，Isaid，thestudyofphilosophytotaketheplaceofgymnasticsandtobecontinueddiligentlyandearnestlyandexclusivelyfortwicethenumberofyearswhichwerepassedinbodilyexercise——willthatbeenough？
Wouldyousaysixorfouryears？heasked。
Sayfiveyears，Ireplied；attheendofthetimetheymustbesentdownagainintothedenandcompelledtoholdanymilitaryorotherofficewhichyoungmenarequalifiedtohold：inthiswaytheywillgettheirexperienceoflife，andtherewillbeanopportunityoftryingwhether，whentheyaredrawnallmannerofwaysbytemptation，theywillstandfirmorflinch。
Andhowlongisthisstageoftheirlivestolast？
Fifteenyears，Ianswered；andwhentheyhavereachedfiftyyearsofage，thenletthosewhostillsurviveandhavedistinguishedthemselvesineveryactionoftheirlivesandineverybranchofknowledgecomeatlasttotheirconsummation；thetimehasnowarrivedatwhichtheymustraisetheeyeofthesoultotheuniversallightwhichlightensallthings，andbeholdtheabsolutegood；forthatisthe，patternaccordingtowhichtheyaretoordertheStateandthelivesofindividuals，andtheremainderoftheirownlivesalso；
makingphilosophytheirchiefpursuit，but，whentheirturncomes，toilingalsoatpoliticsandrulingforthepublicgood，notasthoughtheywereperformingsomeheroicaction，butsimplyasamatterofduty；andwhentheyhavebroughtupineachgenerationotherslikethemselvesandleftthemintheirplacetobegovernorsoftheState，thentheywilldeparttotheIslandsoftheBlestanddwellthere；andthecitywillgivethempublicmemorialsandsacrificesandhonourthem，ifthePythianoracleconsent，asdemi—gods，butifnot，asinanycaseblessedanddivine。
Youareasculptor，Socrates，andhavemadestatuesofourgovernorsfaultlessinbeauty。
Yes，Isaid，Glaucon，andofourgovernessestoo；foryoumustnotsupposethatwhatIhavebeensayingappliestomenonlyandnottowomenasfarastheirnaturescango。
Thereyouareright，hesaid，sincewehavemadethemtoshareinallthingslikethemen。
Well，Isaid，andyouwouldagree（wouldyounot？）thatwhathasbeensaidabouttheStateandthegovernmentisnotameredream，andalthoughdifficultnotimpossible，butonlypossibleinthewaywhichhasbeensupposed；thatistosay，whenthetruephilosopherkingsareborninaState，oneormoreofthem，despisingthehonoursofthispresentworldwhichtheydeemmeanandworthless，esteemingaboveallthingsrightandthehonourthatspringsfromright，andregardingjusticeasthegreatestandmostnecessaryofallthings，whoseministerstheyare，andwhoseprincipleswillbeexaltedbythemwhentheysetinordertheirowncity？
Howwilltheyproceed？
Theywillbeginbysendingoutintothecountryalltheinhabitantsofthecitywhoaremorethantenyearsold，andwilltakepossessionoftheirchildren，whowillbeunaffectedbythehabitsoftheirparents；thesetheywilltrainintheirownhabitsandlaws，Imeaninthelawswhichwehavegiventhem：andinthiswaytheStateandconstitutionofwhichwewerespeakingwillsoonestandmosteasilyattainhappiness，andthenationwhichhassuchaconstitutionwillgainmost。
Yes，thatwillbethebestway。AndIthink，Socrates，thatyouhaveverywelldescribedhow，ifever，suchaconstitutionmightcomeintobeing。
EnoughthenoftheperfectState，andofthemanwhobearsitsimage——thereisnodifficultyinseeinghowweshalldescribehim。
Thereisnodifficulty，hereplied；andIagreewithyouinthinkingthatnothingmoreneedbesaid。
BOOKVIII
SOCRATES—GLAUCON
ANDso，Glaucon，wehavearrivedattheconclusionthatintheperfectStatewivesandchildrenaretobeincommon；andthatalleducationandthepursuitsofwarandpeacearealsotobecommon，andthebestphilosophersandthebravestwarriorsaretobetheirkings？
That，repliedGlaucon，hasbeenacknowledged。
Yes，Isaid；andwehavefurtheracknowledgedthatthegovernors，whenappointedthemselves，willtaketheirsoldiersandplacetheminhousessuchasweweredescribing，whicharecommontoall，andcontainnothingprivate，orindividual；andabouttheirproperty，yourememberwhatweagreed？
Yes，Irememberthatnoonewastohaveanyoftheordinarypossessionsofmankind；theyweretobewarriorathletesandguardians，receivingfromtheothercitizens，inlieuofannualpayment，onlytheirmaintenance，andtheyweretotakecareofthemselvesandofthewholeState。
True，Isaid；andnowthatthisdivisionofourtaskisconcluded，letusfindthepointatwhichwedigressed，thatwemayreturnintotheoldpath。
Thereisnodifficultyinreturning；youimplied，thenasnow，thatyouhadfinishedthedescriptionoftheState：yousaidthatsuchaStatewasgood，andthatthemanwasgoodwhoansweredtoit，although，asnowappears，youhadmoreexcellentthingstorelatebothofStateandman。Andyousaidfurther，thatifthiswasthetrueform，thentheotherswerefalse；andofthefalseforms，yousaid，asIremember，thattherewerefourprincipalones，andthattheirdefects，andthedefectsoftheindividualscorrespondingtothem，wereworthexamining。Whenwehadseenalltheindividuals，andfinallyagreedastowhowasthebestandwhowastheworstofthem，weweretoconsiderwhetherthebestwasnotalsothehappiest，andtheworstthemostmiserable。Iaskedyouwhatwerethefourformsofgovernmentofwhichyouspoke，andthenPolemarchusandAdeimantusputintheirword；andyoubeganagain，andhavefoundyourwaytothepointatwhichwehavenowarrived。
Yourrecollection，Isaid，ismostexact。
Then，likeawrestler，hereplied，youmustputyourselfagaininthesameposition；andletmeaskthesamequestions，anddoyougivemethesameanswerwhichyouwereabouttogivemethen。
Yes，ifIcan，Iwill，Isaid。
Ishallparticularlywishtohearwhatwerethefourconstitutionsofwhichyouwerespeaking。
Thatquestion，Isaid，iseasilyanswered：thefourgovernmentsofwhichIspoke，sofarastheyhavedistinctnames，are，first，thoseofCreteandSparta，whicharegenerallyapplauded；whatistermedoligarchycomesnext；thisisnotequallyapproved，andisaformofgovernmentwhichteemswithevils：thirdly，democracy，whichnaturallyfollowsoligarchy，althoughverydifferent：andlastlycomestyranny，greatandfamous，whichdiffersfromthemall，andisthefourthandworstdisorderofaState。Idonotknow，doyou？ofanyotherconstitutionwhichcanbesaidtohaveadistinctcharacter。
Therearelordshipsandprincipalitieswhichareboughtandsold，andsomeotherintermediateformsofgovernment。ButthesearenondescriptsandmaybefoundequallyamongHellenesandamongbarbarians。
Yes，hereplied，wecertainlyhearofmanycuriousformsofgovernmentwhichexistamongthem。
Doyouknow，Isaid，thatgovernmentsvaryasthedispositionsofmenvary，andthattheremustbeasmanyoftheoneasthereareoftheother？ForwecannotsupposethatStatesaremadeof’oakandrock，’andnotoutofthehumannatureswhichareinthem，andwhichinafigureturnthescaleanddrawotherthingsafterthem？
Yes，hesaid，theStatesareasthemenare；theygrowoutofhumancharacters。
TheniftheconstitutionsofStatesarefive，thedispositionsofindividualmindswillalsobefive？
Certainly。
Himwhoanswerstoaristocracy，andwhomwerightlycalljustandgood，wehavealreadydescribed。
Wehave。