Exactly——
Evenso，asImaintain，neitherwenorourguardians，whomwehavetoeducate，caneverbecomemusicaluntilweandtheyknowtheessentialforms，inalltheircombinations，andcanrecognisethemandtheirimageswherevertheyarefound，notslightingthemeitherinsmallthingsorgreat，butbelievingthemalltobewithinthesphereofoneartandstudy。
Mostassuredly。
Andwhenabeautifulsoulharmoniseswithabeautifulform，andthetwoarecastinonemould，thatwillbethefairestofsightstohimwhohasaneyetoseeit？
Thefairestindeed。
Andthefairestisalsotheloveliest？
Thatmaybeassumed。
Andthemanwhohasthespiritofharmonywillbemostinlovewiththeloveliest；buthewillnotlovehimwhoisofaninharmonioussoul？
Thatistrue，hereplied，ifthedeficiencybeinhissoul；butiftherebeanymerelybodilydefectinanotherhewillbepatientofit，andwillloveallthesame。
Iperceive，Isaid，thatyouhaveorhavehadexperiencesofthissort，andIagree。Butletmeaskyouanotherquestion：Hasexcessofpleasureanyaffinitytotemperance？
Howcanthatbe？hereplied；pleasuredeprivesamanoftheuseofhisfacultiesquiteasmuchaspain。
Oranyaffinitytovirtueingeneral？
Nonewhatever。
Anyaffinitytowantonnessandintemperance？
Yes，thegreatest。
Andisthereanygreaterorkeenerpleasurethanthatofsensuallove？
No，noramadder。
Whereastrueloveisaloveofbeautyandorder——temperateandharmonious？
Quitetrue，hesaid。
Thennointemperanceormadnessshouldbeallowedtoapproachtruelove？
Certainlynot。
Thenmadorintemperatepleasuremustneverbeallowedtocomeneartheloverandhisbeloved；neitherofthemcanhaveanypartinitiftheirloveisoftherightsort？
No，indeed，Socrates，itmustnevercomenearthem。
ThenIsupposethatinthecitywhichwearefoundingyouwouldmakealawtotheeffectthatafriendshouldusenootherfamiliaritytohislovethanafatherwouldusetohisson，andthenonlyforanoblepurpose，andhemustfirsthavetheother’sconsent；andthisruleistolimithiminallhisintercourse，andheisnevertobeseengoingfurther，or，ifheexceeds，heistobedeemedguiltyofcoarsenessandbadtaste。
Iquiteagree，hesaid。
Thusmuchofmusic，whichmakesafairending；forwhatshouldbetheendofmusicifnottheloveofbeauty？
Iagree，hesaid。
Aftermusiccomesgymnastic，inwhichouryoutharenexttobetrained。
Certainly。
Gymnasticaswellasmusicshouldbegininearlyyears；thetraininginitshouldbecarefulandshouldcontinuethroughlife。Nowmybeliefis，——andthisisamatteruponwhichIshouldliketohaveyouropinioninconfirmationofmyown，butmyownbeliefis，——notthatthegoodbodybyanybodilyexcellenceimprovesthesoul，but，onthecontrary，thatthegoodsoul，byherownexcellence，improvesthebodyasfarasthismaybepossible。Whatdoyousay？
Yes，Iagree。
Then，tothemindwhenadequatelytrained，weshallberightinhandingoverthemoreparticularcareofthebody；andinordertoavoidprolixitywewillnowonlygivethegeneraloutlinesofthesubject。
Verygood。
Thattheymustabstainfromintoxicationhasbeenalreadyremarkedbyus；forofallpersonsaguardianshouldbethelasttogetdrunkandnotknowwhereintheworldheis。
Yes，hesaid；thataguardianshouldrequireanotherguardiantotakecareofhimisridiculousindeed。
Butnext，whatshallwesayoftheirfood；forthemenareintrainingforthegreatcontestofall——aretheynot？
Yes，hesaid。
Andwillthehabitofbodyofourordinaryathletesbesuitedtothem？
Whynot？
Iamafraid，Isaid，thatahabitofbodysuchastheyhaveisbutasleepysortofthing，andratherperiloustohealth。Doyounotobservethattheseathletessleepawaytheirlives，andareliabletomostdangerousillnessesiftheydepart，ineversoslightadegree，fromtheircustomaryregimen？
Yes，Ido。
Then，Isaid，afinersortoftrainingwillberequiredforourwarriorathletes，whoaretobelikewakefuldogs，andtoseeandhearwiththeutmostkeenness；amidthemanychangesofwaterandalsooffood，ofsummerheatandwintercold，whichtheywillhavetoendurewhenonacampaign，theymustnotbeliabletobreakdowninhealth。
Thatismyview。
Thereallyexcellentgymnasticistwinsisterofthatsimplemusicwhichwewerejustnowdescribing。
Howso？
Why，Iconceivethatthereisagymnasticwhich，likeourmusic，issimpleandgood；andespeciallythemilitarygymnastic。
Whatdoyoumean？
MymeaningmaybelearnedfromHomer；he，youknow，feedshisheroesattheirfeasts，whentheyarecampaigning，onsoldiers’fare；theyhavenofish，althoughtheyareontheshoresoftheHellespont，andtheyarenotallowedboiledmeatsbutonlyroast，whichisthefoodmostconvenientforsoldiers，requiringonlythattheyshouldlightafire，andnotinvolvingthetroubleofcarryingaboutpotsandpans。
True。
AndIcanhardlybemistakeninsayingthatsweetsaucesarenowherementionedinHomer。Inproscribingthem，however，heisnotsingular；allprofessionalathletesarewellawarethatamanwhoistobeingoodconditionshouldtakenothingofthekind。
Yes，hesaid；andknowingthis，theyarequiterightinnottakingthem。
ThenyouwouldnotapproveofSyracusandinners，andtherefinementsofSiciliancookery？
Ithinknot。
Nor，ifamanistobeincondition，wouldyouallowhimtohaveaCorinthiangirlashisfairfriend？
Certainlynot。
Neitherwouldyouapproveofthedelicacies，astheyarethought，ofAthenianconfectionery？
Certainlynot。
Allsuchfeedingandlivingmayberightlycomparedbyustomelodyandsongcomposedinthepanharmonicstyle，andinalltherhythms。Exactly。
Therecomplexityengenderedlicense，andheredisease；whereassimplicityinmusicwastheparentoftemperanceinthesoul；andsimplicityingymnasticofhealthinthebody。
Mosttrue，hesaid。
ButwhenintemperanceanddiseasemultiplyinaState，hallsofjusticeandmedicinearealwaysbeingopened；andtheartsofthedoctorandthelawyergivethemselvesairs，findinghowkeenistheinterestwhichnotonlytheslavesbutthefreemenofacitytakeaboutthem。
Ofcourse。
Andyetwhatgreaterproofcantherebeofabadanddisgracefulstateofeducationthanthis，thatnotonlyartisansandthemeanersortofpeopleneedtheskilloffirst—ratephysiciansandjudges，butalsothosewhowouldprofesstohavehadaliberaleducation？Isitnotdisgraceful，andagreatsignofwantofgood—breeding，thatamanshouldhavetogoabroadforhislawandphysicbecausehehasnoneofhisownathome，andmustthereforesurrenderhimselfintothehandsofothermenwhomhemakeslordsandjudgesoverhim？
Ofallthings，hesaid，themostdisgraceful。
Wouldyousay’most，’Ireplied，whenyouconsiderthatthereisafurtherstageoftheevilinwhichamanisnotonlyalife—longlitigant，passingallhisdaysinthecourts，eitherasplaintiffordefendant，butisactuallyledbyhisbadtastetopridehimselfonhislitigiousness；heimaginesthatheisamasterindishonesty；abletotakeeverycrookedturn，andwriggleintoandoutofeveryhole，bendinglikeawithyandgettingoutofthewayofjustice：andallforwhat？——inordertogainsmallpointsnotworthmentioning，henotknowingthatsotoorderhislifeastobeabletodowithoutanappingjudgeisafarhigherandnoblersortofthing。Isnotthatstillmoredisgraceful？
Yes，hesaid，thatisstillmoredisgraceful。
Well，Isaid，andtorequirethehelpofmedicine，notwhenawoundhastobecured，oronoccasionofanepidemic，butjustbecause，byindolenceandahabitoflifesuchaswehavebeendescribing，menfillthemselveswithwatersandwinds，asiftheirbodieswereamarsh，compellingtheingenioussonsofAsclepiustofindmorenamesfordiseases，suchasflatulenceandcatarrh；isnotthis，too，adisgrace？
Yes，hesaid，theydocertainlygiveverystrangeandnewfanglednamestodiseases。
Yes，Isaid，andIdonotbelievethattherewereanysuchdiseasesinthedaysofAsclepius；andthisIinferfromthecircumstancethattheheroEurypylus，afterhehasbeenwoundedinHomer，drinksapossetofPramnianwinewellbesprinkledwithbarley—mealandgratedcheese，whicharecertainlyinflammatory，andyetthesonsofAsclepiuswhowereattheTrojanwardonotblamethedamselwhogiveshimthedrink，orrebukePatroclus，whoistreatinghiscase。
Well，hesaid，thatwassurelyanextraordinarydrinktobegiventoapersoninhiscondition。
Notsoextraordinary，Ireplied，ifyoubearinmindthatinformerdays，asiscommonlysaid，beforethetimeofHerodicus，theguildofAsclepiusdidnotpractiseourpresentsystemofmedicine，whichmaybesaidtoeducatediseases。ButHerodicus，beingatrainer，andhimselfofasicklyconstitution，byacombinationoftraininganddoctoringfoundoutawayoftorturingfirstandchieflyhimself，andsecondlytherestoftheworld。
Howwasthat？hesaid。
Bytheinventionoflingeringdeath；forhehadamortaldiseasewhichheperpetuallytended，andasrecoverywasoutofthequestion，hepassedhisentirelifeasavaletudinarian；hecoulddonothingbutattenduponhimself，andhewasinconstanttormentwheneverhedepartedinanythingfromhisusualregimen，andsodyinghard，bythehelpofsciencehestruggledontooldage。
Ararerewardofhisskill！
Yes，Isaid；arewardwhichamanmightfairlyexpectwhoneverunderstoodthat，ifAsclepiusdidnotinstructhisdescendantsinvaletudinarianarts，theomissionarose，notfromignoranceorinexperienceofsuchabranchofmedicine，butbecauseheknewthatinallwell—orderedstateseveryindividualhasanoccupationtowhichhemustattend，andhasthereforenoleisuretospendincontinuallybeingill。Thisweremarkinthecaseoftheartisan，but，ludicrouslyenough，donotapplythesameruletopeopleoftherichersort。
Howdoyoumean？hesaid。
Imeanthis：Whenacarpenterisillheasksthephysicianforaroughandreadycure；anemeticorapurgeoracauteryortheknife，——thesearehisremedies。Andifsomeoneprescribesforhimacourseofdietetics，andtellshimthathemustswatheandswaddlehishead，andallthatsortofthing，herepliesatoncethathehasnotimetobeill，andthatheseesnogoodinalifewhichisspentinnursinghisdiseasetotheneglectofhiscustomaryemployment；andthereforebiddinggood—byetothissortofphysician，heresumeshisordinaryhabits，andeithergetswellandlivesanddoeshisbusiness，or，ifhisconstitutionfalls，hediesandhasnomoretrouble。
Yes，hesaid，andamaninhisconditionoflifeoughttousetheartofmedicinethusfaronly。
Hashenot，Isaid，anoccupation；andwhatprofitwouldtherebeinhislifeifheweredeprivedofhisoccupation？
Quitetrue，hesaid。
Butwiththerichmanthisisotherwise；ofhimwedonotsaythathehasanyspeciallyappointedworkwhichhemustperform，ifhewouldlive。
Heisgenerallysupposedtohavenothingtodo。
ThenyouneverheardofthesayingofPhocylides，thatassoonasamanhasalivelihoodheshouldpractisevirtue？
Nay，hesaid，Ithinkthathehadbetterbeginsomewhatsooner。
Letusnothaveadisputewithhimaboutthis，Isaid；butratheraskourselves：Isthepracticeofvirtueobligatoryontherichman，orcanhelivewithoutit？Andifobligatoryonhim，thenletusraiseafurtherquestion，whetherthisdietingofdisorderswhichisanimpedimenttotheapplicationofthemindtincarpenteringandthemechanicalarts，doesnotequallystandinthewayofthesentimentofPhocylides？
Ofthat，hereplied，therecanbenodoubt；suchexcessivecareofthebody，whencarriedbeyondtherulesofgymnastic，ismostinimicaltothepracticeofvirtue。
Yes，indeed，Ireplied，andequallyincompatiblewiththemanagementofahouse，anarmy，oranofficeofstate；and，whatismostimportantofall，irreconcilablewithanykindofstudyorthoughtorself—reflection——thereisaconstantsuspicionthatheadacheandgiddinessaretobeascribedtophilosophy，andhenceallpractisingormakingtrialofvirtueinthehighersenseisabsolutelystopped；
foramanisalwaysfancyingthatheisbeingmadeill，andisinconstantanxietyaboutthestateofhisbody。
Yes，likelyenough。
AndthereforeourpoliticAsclepiusmaybesupposedtohaveexhibitedthepowerofhisartonlytopersonswho，beinggenerallyofhealthyconstitutionandhabitsoflife，hadadefiniteailment；
suchasthesehecuredbypurgesandoperations，andbadethemliveasusual，hereinconsultingtheinterestsoftheState；butbodieswhichdiseasehadpenetratedthroughandthroughhewouldnothaveattemptedtocurebygradualprocessesofevacuationandinfusion：
hedidnotwanttolengthenoutgood—for—nothinglives，ortohaveweakfathersbegettingweakersons；——ifamanwasnotabletoliveintheordinarywayhehadnobusinesstocurehim；forsuchacurewouldhavebeenofnouseeithertohimself，ortotheState。
Then，hesaid，youregardAsclepiusasastatesman。
Clearly；andhischaracterisfurtherillustratedbyhissons。
NotethattheywereheroesinthedaysofoldandpractisedthemedicinesofwhichIamspeakingatthesiegeofTroy：Youwillrememberhow，whenPandaruswoundedMenelaus，theySuckedthebloodoutofthewound，andsprinkledsoothingremedies，buttheyneverprescribedwhatthepatientwasafterwardstoeatordrinkinthecaseofMenelaus，anymorethaninthecaseofEurypylus；
theremedies，astheyconceived，wereenoughtohealanymanwhobeforehewaswoundedwashealthyandregularinhabits；andeventhoughhedidhappentodrinkapossetofPramnianwine，hemightgetwellallthesame。Buttheywouldhavenothingtodowithunhealthyandintemperatesubjects，whoseliveswereofnouseeithertothemselvesorothers；theartofmedicinewasnotdesignedfortheirgood，andthoughtheywereasrichasMidas，thesonsofAsclepiuswouldhavedeclinedtoattendthem。
Theywereveryacutepersons，thosesonsofAsclepius。
Naturallyso，Ireplied。Nevertheless，thetragediansandPindardisobeyingourbehests，althoughtheyacknowledgethatAsclepiuswasthesonofApollo，sayalsothathewasbribedintohealingarichmanwhowasatthepointofdeath，andforthisreasonhewasstruckbylightning。Butwe，inaccordancewiththeprinciplealreadyaffirmedbyus，willnotbelievethemwhentheytellusboth；——ifhewasthesonofagod，wemaintainthathdwasnotavaricious；or，ifhewasavaricioushewasnotthesonofagod。
Allthat，Socrates，isexcellent；butIshouldliketoputaquestiontoyou：OughttherenottobegoodphysiciansinaState，andarenotthebestthosewhohavetreatedthegreatestnumberofconstitutionsgoodandbad？andarenotthebestjudgesinlikemannerthosewhoareacquaintedwithallsortsofmoralnatures？
Yes，Isaid，Itoowouldhavegoodjudgesandgoodphysicians。ButdoyouknowwhomIthinkgood？
Willyoutellme？
Iwill，ifIcan。Letmehowevernotethatinthesamequestionyoujointwothingswhicharenotthesame。
Howso？heasked。
Why，Isaid，youjoinphysiciansandjudges。Nowthemostskilfulphysiciansarethosewho，fromtheiryouthupwards，havecombinedwiththeknowledgeoftheirartthegreatestexperienceofdisease；theyhadbetternotberobustinhealth，andshouldhavehadallmannerofdiseasesintheirownpersons。Forthebody，asIconceive，isnottheinstrumentwithwhichtheycurethebody；inthatcasewecouldnotallowthemevertobeortohavebeensickly；buttheycurethebodywiththemind，andthemindwhichhasbecomeandissickcancurenothing。
Thatisverytrue，hesaid。
Butwiththejudgeitisotherwise；sincehegovernsmindbymind；
heoughtnotthereforetohavebeentrainedamongviciousminds，andtohaveassociatedwiththemfromyouthupwards，andtohavegonethroughthewholecalendarofcrime，onlyinorderthathemayquicklyinferthecrimesofothersashemighttheirbodilydiseasesfromhisownself—consciousness；thehonourablemindwhichistoformahealthyjudgmentshouldhavehadnoexperienceorcontaminationofevilhabitswhenyoung。Andthisisthereasonwhyinyouthgoodmenoftenappeartobesimple，andareeasilypractiseduponbythedishonest，becausetheyhavenoexamplesofwhatevilisintheirownsouls。
Yes，hesaid，theyarefartooapttobedeceived。
Therefore，Isaid，thejudgeshouldnotbeyoung；heshouldhavelearnedtoknowevil，notfromhisownsoul，butfromlateandlongobservationofthenatureofevilinothers：knowledgeshouldbehisguide，notpersonalexperience。
Yes，hesaid，thatistheidealofajudge。
Yes，Ireplied，andhewillbeagoodman（whichismyanswertoyourquestion）；forheisgoodwhohasagoodsoul。Butthecunningandsuspiciousnatureofwhichwespoke，——hewhohascommittedmanycrimes，andfancieshimselftobeamasterinwickedness，whenheisamongsthisfellows，iswonderfulintheprecautionswhichhetakes，becausehejudgesofthembyhimself：butwhenhegetsintothecompanyofmenofvirtue，whohavetheexperienceofage，heappearstobeafoolagain，owingtohisunseasonablesuspicions；hecannotrecogniseanhonestman，becausehehasnopatternofhonestyinhimself；atthesametime，asthebadaremorenumerousthanthegood，andhemeetswiththemoftener，hethinkshimself，andisbyothersthoughttobe，ratherwisethanfoolish。
Mosttrue，hesaid。
Thenthegoodandwisejudgewhomweareseekingisnotthisman，buttheother；forvicecannotknowvirtuetoo，butavirtuousnature，educatedbytime，willacquireaknowledgebothofvirtueandvice：
thevirtuous，andnotthevicious，manhaswisdom——inmyopinion。
Andinminealso。
Thisisthesortofmedicine，andthisisthesortoflaw，whichyousanctioninyourState。Theywillministertobetternatures，givinghealthbothofsoulandofbody；butthosewhoarediseasedintheirbodiestheywillleavetodie，andthecorruptandincurablesoulstheywillputanendtothemselves。
ThatisclearlythebestthingbothforthepatientsandfortheState。
Andthusouryouth，havingbeeneducatedonlyinthatsimplemusicwhich，aswesaid，inspirestemperance，willbereluctanttogotolaw。
Clearly。
Andthemusician，who，keepingtothesametrack，iscontenttopractisethesimplegymnastic，willhavenothingtodowithmedicineunlessinsomeextremecase。
ThatIquitebelieve。
Theveryexercisesandtollswhichheundergoesareintendedtostimulatethespiritedelementofhisnature，andnottoincreasehisstrength；hewillnot，likecommonathletes，useexerciseandregimentodevelophismuscles。
Veryright，hesaid。
Neitherarethetwoartsofmusicandgymnasticreallydesigned，asisoftensupposed，theoneforthetrainingofthesoul，theotherfirthetrainingofthebody。
Whatthenistherealobjectofthem？
Ibelieve，Isaid，thattheteachersofbothhaveinviewchieflytheimprovementofthesoul。
Howcanthatbe？heasked。
Didyouneverobserve，Isaid，theeffectontheminditselfofexclusivedevotiontogymnastic，ortheoppositeeffectofanexclusivedevotiontomusic？
Inwhatwayshown？hesaid。
Theoneproducingatemperofhardnessandferocity，theotherofsoftnessandeffeminacy，Ireplied。
Yes，hesaid，Iamquiteawarethatthemereathletebecomestoomuchofasavage，andthatthemeremusicianismeltedandsoftenedbeyondwhatisgoodforhim。
Yetsurely，Isaid，thisferocityonlycomesfromspirit，which，ifrightlyeducated，wouldgivecourage，but，iftoomuchintensified，isliabletobecomehardandbrutal。
ThatIquitethink。
Ontheotherhandthephilosopherwillhavethequalityofgentleness。Andthisalso，whentoomuchindulged，willturntosoftness，but，ifeducatedrightly，willbegentleandmoderate。
True。
Andinouropiniontheguardiansoughttohaveboththesequalities？
Assuredly。
Andbothshouldbeinharmony？
Beyondquestion。
Andtheharmonioussoulisbothtemperateandcourageous？
Yes。
Andtheinharmoniousiscowardlyandboorish？
Verytrue。
And，whenamanallowsmusictoplayuponhimandtopourintohissoulthroughthefunnelofhisearsthosesweetandsoftandmelancholyairsofwhichwewerejustnowspeaking，andhiswholelifeispassedinwarblingandthedelightsofsong；inthefirststageoftheprocessthepassionorspiritwhichisinhimistemperedlikeiron，andmadeuseful，insteadofbrittleanduseless。But，ifhecarriesonthesofteningandsoothingprocess，inthenextstagehebeginstomeltandwaste，untilhehaswastedawayhisspiritandcutoutthesinewsofhissoul；andhebecomesafeeblewarrior。
Verytrue。
Iftheelementofspiritisnaturallyweakinhimthechangeisspeedilyaccomplished，butifhehaveagooddeal，thenthepowerofmusicweakeningthespiritrendershimexcitable；——ontheleastprovocationheflamesupatonce，andisspeedilyextinguished；
insteadofhavingspirithegrowsirritableandpassionateandisquiteimpracticable。
Exactly。