Butistheartofmedicineoranyotherartfaultyordeficientinanyqualityinthesamewaythattheeyemaybedeficientinsightortheearfailofhearing，andthereforerequiresanotherarttoprovidefortheinterestsofseeingandhearing——hasartinitself，I
say，anysimilarliabilitytofaultordefect，anddoeseveryartrequireanothersupplementaryarttoprovideforitsinterests，andthatanotherandanotherwithoutend？Orhavetheartstolookonlyaftertheirowninterests？Orhavetheynoneedeitherofthemselvesorofanother？——havingnofaultsordefects，theyhavenoneedtocorrectthem，eitherbytheexerciseoftheirownartorofanyother；
theyhaveonlytoconsidertheinterestoftheirsubject—matter。Foreveryartremainspureandfaultlesswhileremainingtrue——thatistosay，whileperfectandunimpaired。Takethewordsinyourprecisesense，andtellmewhetherIamnotright。\"
Yes，clearly。
Thenmedicinedoesnotconsidertheinterestofmedicine，buttheinterestofthebody？
True，hesaid。
Nordoestheartofhorsemanshipconsidertheinterestsoftheartofhorsemanship，buttheinterestsofthehorse；neitherdoanyotherartscareforthemselves，fortheyhavenoneeds；theycareonlyforthatwhichisthesubjectoftheirart？
True，hesaid。
Butsurely，Thrasymachus，theartsarethesuperiorsandrulersoftheirownsubjects？
Tothisheassentedwithagooddealofreluctance。
Then，Isaid，noscienceorartconsidersorenjoinstheinterestofthestrongerorsuperior，butonlytheinterestofthesubjectandweaker？
Hemadeanattempttocontestthispropositionalso，butfinallyacquiesced。
Then，Icontinued，nophysician，insofarasheisaphysician，considershisowngoodinwhatheprescribes，butthegoodofhispatient；forthetruephysicianisalsoarulerhavingthehumanbodyasasubject，andisnotameremoney—maker；thathasbeenadmitted？
Yes。
Andthepilotlikewise，inthestrictsenseoftheterm，isarulerofsailorsandnotameresailor？
Thathasbeenadmitted。
Andsuchapilotandrulerwillprovideandprescribefortheinterestofthesailorwhoisunderhim，andnotforhisownortheruler’sinterest？
Hegaveareluctant’Yes。’
Then，Isaid，Thrasymachus，thereisnooneinanyrulewho，insofarasheisaruler，considersorenjoinswhatisforhisowninterest，butalwayswhatisfortheinterestofhissubjectorsuitabletohisart；tothathelooks，andthataloneheconsidersineverythingwhichhesaysanddoes。
Whenwehadgottothispointintheargument，andeveryonesawthatthedefinitionofjusticehadbeencompletelyupset，Thrasymachus，insteadofreplyingtome，said：Tellme，Socrates，haveyougotanurse？
Whydoyouasksuchaquestion，Isaid，whenyououghtrathertobeanswering？
Becausesheleavesyoutosnivel，andneverwipesyournose：shehasnoteventaughtyoutoknowtheshepherdfromthesheep。
Whatmakesyousaythat？Ireplied。
Becauseyoufancythattheshepherdorneatherdfattensoftendsthesheeporoxenwithaviewtotheirowngoodandnottothegoodofhimselforhismaster；andyoufurtherimaginethattherulersofstates，iftheyaretruerulers，neverthinkoftheirsubjectsassheep，andthattheyarenotstudyingtheirownadvantagedayandnight。Oh，no；andsoentirelyastrayareyouinyourideasaboutthejustandunjustasnoteventoknowthatjusticeandthejustareinrealityanother’sgood；thatistosay，theinterestoftherulerandstronger，andthelossofthesubjectandservant；andinjusticetheopposite；fortheunjustislordoverthetrulysimpleandjust：heisthestronger，andhissubjectsdowhatisforhisinterest，andministertohishappiness，whichisveryfarfrombeingtheirown。Considerfurther，mostfoolishSocrates，thatthejustisalwaysaloserincomparisonwiththeunjust。Firstofall，inprivatecontracts：wherevertheunjustisthepartnerofthejustyouwillfindthat，whenthepartnershipisdissolved，theunjustmanhasalwaysmoreandthejustless。Secondly，intheirdealingswiththeState：whenthereisanincometax，thejustmanwillpaymoreandtheunjustlessonthesameamountofincome；andwhenthereisanythingtobereceivedtheonegainsnothingandtheothermuch。Observealsowhathappenswhentheytakeanoffice；thereisthejustmanneglectinghisaffairsandperhapssufferingotherlosses，andgettingnothingoutofthepublic，becauseheisjust；moreoverheishatedbyhisfriendsandacquaintanceforrefusingtoservetheminunlawfulways。Butallthisisreversedinthecaseoftheunjustman。
Iamspeaking，asbefore，ofinjusticeonalargescaleinwhichtheadvantageoftheunjustismoreapparent；andmymeaningwillbemostclearlyseenifweturntothathighestformofinjusticeinwhichthecriminalisthehappiestofmen，andthesufferersorthosewhorefusetodoinjusticearethemostmiserable——thatistosaytyranny，whichbyfraudandforcetakesawaythepropertyofothers，notlittlebylittlebutwholesale；comprehendinginone，thingssacredaswellasprofane，privateandpublic；forwhichactsofwrong，ifheweredetectedperpetratinganyoneofthemsingly，hewouldbepunishedandincurgreatdisgrace——theywhodosuchwronginparticularcasesarecalledrobbersoftemples，andman—stealersandburglarsandswindlersandthieves。Butwhenamanbesidestakingawaythemoneyofthecitizenshasmadeslavesofthem，then，insteadofthesenamesofreproach，heistermedhappyandblessed，notonlybythecitizensbutbyallwhohearofhishavingachievedtheconsummationofinjustice。Formankindcensureinjustice，fearingthattheymaybethevictimsofitandnotbecausetheyshrinkfromcommittingit。Andthus，asIhaveshown，Socrates，injustice，whenonasufficientscale，hasmorestrengthandfreedomandmasterythanjustice；and，asIsaidatfirst，justiceistheinterestofthestronger，whereasinjusticeisaman’sownprofitandinterest。
Thrasymachus，whenhehadthusspoken，having，likeabathman，delugedourearswithhiswords，hadamindtogoaway。Butthecompanywouldnotlethim；theyinsistedthatheshouldremainanddefendhisposition；andImyselfaddedmyownhumblerequestthathewouldnotleaveus。Thrasymachus，Isaidtohim，excellentman，howsuggestiveareyourremarks！Andareyougoingtorunawaybeforeyouhavefairlytaughtorlearnedwhethertheyaretrueornot？Istheattempttodeterminethewayofman’slifesosmallamatterinyoureyes——todeterminehowlifemaybepassedbyeachoneofustothegreatestadvantage？
AnddoIdifferfromyou，hesaid，astotheimportanceoftheenquiry？
Youappearrather，Ireplied，tohavenocareorthoughtaboutus，Thrasymachus——whetherwelivebetterorworsefromnotknowingwhatyousayyouknow，istoyouamatterofindifference。Prithee，friend，donotkeepyourknowledgetoyourself；wearealargeparty；andanybenefitwhichyouconferuponuswillbeamplyrewarded。FormyownpartIopenlydeclarethatIamnotconvinced，andthatIdonotbelieveinjusticetobemoregainfulthanjustice，evenifuncontrolledandallowedtohavefreeplay。For，grantingthattheremaybeanunjustmanwhoisabletocommitinjusticeeitherbyfraudorforce，stillthisdoesnotconvincemeofthesuperioradvantageofinjustice，andtheremaybeotherswhoareinthesamepredicamentwithmyself。Perhapswemaybewrong；ifso，youinyourwisdomshouldconvinceusthatwearemistakeninpreferringjusticetoinjustice。
AndhowamItoconvinceyou，hesaid，ifyouarenotalreadyconvincedbywhatIhavejustsaid；whatmorecanIdoforyou？
Wouldyouhavemeputtheproofbodilyintoyoursouls？
Heavenforbid！Isaid；Iwouldonlyaskyoutobeconsistent；or，ifyouchange，changeopenlyandlettherebenodeception。ForImustremark，Thrasymachus，ifyouwillrecallwhatwaspreviouslysaid，thatalthoughyoubeganbydefiningthetruephysicianinanexactsense，youdidnotobservealikeexactnesswhenspeakingoftheshepherd；youthoughtthattheshepherdasashepherdtendsthesheepnotwithaviewtotheirowngood，butlikeameredinerorbanqueterwithaviewtothepleasuresofthetable；or，again，asatraderforsaleinthemarket，andnotasashepherd。Yetsurelytheartoftheshepherdisconcernedonlywiththegoodofhissubjects；
hehasonlytoprovidethebestforthem，sincetheperfectionoftheartisalreadyensuredwheneveralltherequirementsofitaresatisfied。AndthatwaswhatIwassayingjustnowabouttheruler。
Iconceivedthattheartoftheruler，consideredasruler，whetherinastateorinprivatelife，couldonlyregardthegoodofhisflockorsubjects；whereasyouseemtothinkthattherulersinstates，thatistosay，thetruerulers，likebeinginauthority。
Think！Nay，Iamsureofit。
Thenwhyinthecaseoflesserofficesdomennevertakethemwillinglywithoutpayment，unlessundertheideathattheygovernfortheadvantagenotofthemselvesbutofothers？Letmeaskyouaquestion：Arenottheseveralartsdifferent，byreasonoftheireachhavingaseparatefunction？And，mydearillustriousfriend，dosaywhatyouthink，thatwemaymakealittleprogress。
Yes，thatisthedifference，hereplied。
Andeachartgivesusaparticulargoodandnotmerelyageneralone——medicine，forexample，givesushealth；navigation，safetyatsea，andsoon？
Yes，hesaid。
Andtheartofpaymenthasthespecialfunctionofgivingpay：butwedonotconfusethiswithotherarts，anymorethantheartofthepilotistobeconfusedwiththeartofmedicine，becausethehealthofthepilotmaybeimprovedbyaseavoyage。Youwouldnotbeinclinedtosay，wouldyou，thatnavigationistheartofmedicine，atleastifwearetoadoptyourexactuseoflanguage？
Certainlynot。
Orbecauseamanisingoodhealthwhenhereceivespayyouwouldnotsaythattheartofpaymentismedicine？
Ishouldsaynot。
Norwouldyousaythatmedicineistheartofreceivingpaybecauseamantakesfeeswhenheisengagedinhealing？
Certainlynot。
Andwehaveadmitted，Isaid，thatthegoodofeachartisspeciallyconfinedtotheart？
Yes。
Then，iftherebeanygoodwhichallartistshaveincommon，thatistobeattributedtosomethingofwhichtheyallhavethecommonuse？
True，hereplied。
Andwhentheartistisbenefitedbyreceivingpaytheadvantageisgainedbyanadditionaluseoftheartofpay，whichisnottheartprofessedbyhim？
Hegaveareluctantassenttothis。
Thenthepayisnotderivedbytheseveralartistsfromtheirrespectivearts。Butthetruthis，thatwhiletheartofmedicinegiveshealth，andtheartofthebuilderbuildsahouse，anotherartattendsthemwhichistheartofpay。Thevariousartsmaybedoingtheirownbusinessandbenefitingthatoverwhichtheypreside，butwouldtheartistreceiveanybenefitfromhisartunlesshewerepaidaswell？
Isupposenot。
Butdoeshethereforeconfernobenefitwhenheworksfornothing？
Certainly，heconfersabenefit。
Thennow，Thrasymachus，thereisnolongeranydoubtthatneitherartsnorgovernmentsprovidefortheirowninterests；but，aswewerebeforesaying，theyruleandprovidefortheinterestsoftheirsubjectswhoaretheweakerandnotthestronger——totheirgoodtheyattendandnottothegoodofthesuperior。
Andthisisthereason，mydearThrasymachus，why，asIwasjustnowsaying，nooneiswillingtogovern；becausenoonelikestotakeinhandthereformationofevilswhicharenothisconcernwithoutremuneration。For，intheexecutionofhiswork，andingivinghisorderstoanother，thetrueartistdoesnotregardhisowninterest，butalwaysthatofhissubjects；andthereforeinorderthatrulersmaybewillingtorule，theymustbepaidinoneofthreemodesofpayment：money，orhonour，orapenaltyforrefusing。
SOCRATES—GLAUCON
Whatdoyoumean，Socrates？saidGlaucon。Thefirsttwomodesofpaymentareintelligibleenough，butwhatthepenaltyisIdonotunderstand，orhowapenaltycanbeapayment。
Youmeanthatyoudonotunderstandthenatureofthispaymentwhichtothebestmenisthegreatinducementtorule？Ofcourseyouknowthatambitionandavariceareheldtobe，asindeedtheyare，adisgrace？
Verytrue。
Andforthisreason，Isaid，moneyandhonourhavenoattractionforthem；goodmendonotwishtobeopenlydemandingpaymentforgoverningandsotogetthenameofhirelings，norbysecretlyhelpingthemselvesoutofthepublicrevenuestogetthenameofthieves。
Andnotbeingambitioustheydonotcareabouthonour。Whereforenecessitymustbelaiduponthem，andtheymustbeinducedtoservefromthefearofpunishment。Andthis，asIimagine，isthereasonwhytheforwardnesstotakeoffice，insteadofwaitingtobecompelled，hasbeendeemeddishonourable。Nowtheworstpartofthepunishmentisthathewhorefusestoruleisliabletoberuledbyonewhoisworsethanhimself。Andthefearofthis，asIconceive，inducesthegoodtotakeoffice，notbecausetheywould，butbecausetheycannothelp——notundertheideathattheyaregoingtohaveanybenefitorenjoymentthemselves，butasanecessity，andbecausetheyarenotabletocommitthetaskofrulingtoanyonewhoisbetterthanthemselves，orindeedasgood。Forthereisreasontothinkthatifacitywerecomposedentirelyofgoodmen，thentoavoidofficewouldbeasmuchanobjectofcontentionastoobtainofficeisatpresent；thenweshouldhaveplainproofthatthetruerulerisnotmeantbynaturetoregardhisowninterest，butthatofhissubjects；andeveryonewhoknewthiswouldchooserathertoreceiveabenefitfromanotherthantohavethetroubleofconferringone。SofaramIfromagreeingwithThrasymachusthatjusticeistheinterestofthestronger。Thislatterquestionneednotbefurtherdiscussedatpresent；butwhenThrasymachussaysthatthelifeoftheunjustismoreadvantageousthanthatofthejust，hisnewstatementappearstometobeofafarmoreseriouscharacter。Whichofushasspokentruly？Andwhichsortoflife，Glaucon，doyouprefer？
Iformypartdeemthelifeofthejusttobethemoreadvantageous，heanswered。
DidyouhearalltheadvantagesoftheunjustwhichThrasymachuswasrehearsing？
Yes，Iheardhim，hereplied，buthehasnotconvincedme。
Thenshallwetrytofindsomewayofconvincinghim，ifwecan，thatheissayingwhatisnottrue？
Mostcertainly，hereplied。
If，Isaid，hemakesasetspeechandwemakeanotherrecountingalltheadvantagesofbeingjust，andheanswersandwerejoin，theremustbeanumberingandmeasuringofthegoodswhichareclaimedoneitherside，andintheendweshallwantjudgestodecide；butifweproceedinourenquiryaswelatelydid，bymakingadmissionstooneanother，weshallunitetheofficesofjudgeandadvocateinourownpersons。
Verygood，hesaid。
AndwhichmethoddoIunderstandyoutoprefer？Isaid。
Thatwhichyoupropose。
Well，then，Thrasymachus，Isaid，supposeyoubeginatthebeginningandanswerme。Yousaythatperfectinjusticeismoregainfulthanperfectjustice？
SOCRATES—GLAUCON—THRASYMACHUS
Yes，thatiswhatIsay，andIhavegivenyoumyreasons。
Andwhatisyourviewaboutthem？Wouldyoucalloneofthemvirtueandtheothervice？
Certainly。
Isupposethatyouwouldcalljusticevirtueandinjusticevice？
Whatacharmingnotion！Solikelytoo，seeingthatIaffirminjusticetobeprofitableandjusticenot。
Whatelsethenwouldyousay？
Theopposite，hereplied。
Andwouldyoucalljusticevice？
No，Iwouldrathersaysublimesimplicity。
Thenwouldyoucallinjusticemalignity？
No；Iwouldrathersaydiscretion。
Anddotheunjustappeartoyoutobewiseandgood？
Yes，hesaid；atanyratethoseofthemwhoareabletobeperfectlyunjust，andwhohavethepowerofsubduingstatesandnations；butperhapsyouimaginemetobetalkingofcutpurses。
Eventhisprofessionifundetectedhasadvantages，thoughtheyarenottobecomparedwiththoseofwhichIwasjustnowspeaking。
IdonotthinkthatImisapprehendyourmeaning，Thrasymachus，I
replied；butstillIcannothearwithoutamazementthatyouclassinjusticewithwisdomandvirtue，andjusticewiththeopposite。
CertainlyIdosoclassthem。
Now，Isaid，youareonmoresubstantialandalmostunanswerableground；foriftheinjusticewhichyouweremaintainingtobeprofitablehadbeenadmittedbyyouasbyotherstobeviceanddeformity，ananswermighthavebeengiventoyouonreceivedprinciples；butnowIperceivethatyouwillcallinjusticehonourableandstrong，andtotheunjustyouwillattributeallthequalitieswhichwereattributedbyusbeforetothejust，seeingthatyoudonothesitatetorankinjusticewithwisdomandvirtue。
Youhaveguessedmostinfallibly，hereplied。
ThenIcertainlyoughtnottoshrinkfromgoingthroughwiththeargumentsolongasIhavereasontothinkthatyou，Thrasymachus，arespeakingyourrealmind；forIdobelievethatyouarenowinearnestandarenotamusingyourselfatourexpense。
Imaybeinearnestornot，butwhatisthattoyou？——torefutetheargumentisyourbusiness。
Verytrue，Isaid；thatiswhatIhavetodo：Butwillyoubesogoodasansweryetonemorequestion？Doesthejustmantrytogainanyadvantageoverthejust？
Farotherwise；ifhedidwouldnotbethesimple，amusingcreaturewhichheis。
Andwouldhetrytogobeyondjustaction？
Hewouldnot。
Andhowwouldheregardtheattempttogainanadvantageovertheunjust；wouldthatbeconsideredbyhimasjustorunjust？
Hewouldthinkitjust，andwouldtrytogaintheadvantage；buthewouldnotbeable。
Whetherhewouldorwouldnotbeable，Isaid，isnottothepoint。Myquestionisonlywhetherthejustman，whilerefusingtohavemorethananotherjustman，wouldwishandclaimtohavemorethantheunjust？
Yes，hewould。
Andwhatoftheunjust——doesheclaimtohavemorethanthejustmanandtodomorethanisjustOfcourse，hesaid，forheclaimstohavemorethanallmen。
Andtheunjustmanwillstriveandstruggletoobtainmorethantheunjustmanoraction，inorderthathemayhavemorethanall？
True。
Wemayputthematterthus，Isaid——thejustdoesnotdesiremorethanhislikebutmorethanhisunlike，whereastheunjustdesiresmorethanbothhislikeandhisunlike？
Nothing，hesaid，canbebetterthanthatstatement。
Andtheunjustisgoodandwise，andthejustisneither？
Goodagain，hesaid。
Andisnottheunjustlikethewiseandgoodandthejustunlikethem？
Ofcourse，hesaid，hewhoisofacertainnature，islikethosewhoareofacertainnature；hewhoisnot，not。
Eachofthem，Isaid，issuchashislikeis？
Certainly，hereplied。
Verygood，Thrasymachus，Isaid；andnowtotakethecaseofthearts：youwouldadmitthatonemanisamusicianandanothernotamusician？
Yes。
Andwhichiswiseandwhichisfoolish？
Clearlythemusicianiswise，andhewhoisnotamusicianisfoolish。
Andheisgoodinasfarasheiswise，andbadinasfarasheisfoolish？
Yes。
Andyouwouldsaythesamesortofthingofthephysician？
Yes。
Anddoyouthink，myexcellentfriend，thatamusicianwhenheadjuststhelyrewoulddesireorclaimtoexceedorgobeyondamusicianinthetighteningandlooseningthestrings？
Idonotthinkthathewould。
Buthewouldclaimtoexceedthenon—musician？
Ofcourse。
Andwhatwouldyousayofthephysician？Inprescribingmeatsanddrinkswouldhewishtogobeyondanotherphysicianorbeyondthepracticeofmedicine？
Hewouldnot。
Buthewouldwishtogobeyondthenon—physician？
Yes。
Andaboutknowledgeandignoranceingeneral；seewhetheryouthinkthatanymanwhohasknowledgeeverwouldwishtohavethechoiceofsayingordoingmorethananothermanwhohasknowledge。
Wouldhenotrathersayordothesameashislikeinthesamecase？
That，Isuppose，canhardlybedenied。
Andwhatoftheignorant？wouldhenotdesiretohavemorethaneithertheknowingortheignorant？
Idaresay。
Andtheknowingiswise？
Yes。
Andthewiseisgood？
True。
Thenthewiseandgoodwillnotdesiretogainmorethanhislike，butmorethanhisunlikeandopposite？
Isupposeso。
Whereasthebadandignorantwilldesiretogainmorethanboth？
Yes。
Butdidwenotsay，Thrasymachus，thattheunjustgoesbeyondbothhislikeandunlike？Werenottheseyourwords？Theywere。
Theywere。
Andyoualsosaidthatthelustwillnotgobeyondhislikebuthisunlike？
Yes。
Thenthejustislikethewiseandgood，andtheunjustliketheevilandignorant？
Thatistheinference。
Andeachofthemissuchashislikeis？
Thatwasadmitted。
Thenthejusthasturnedouttobewiseandgoodandtheunjustevilandignorant。
Thrasymachusmadealltheseadmissions，notfluently，asIrepeatthem，butwithextremereluctance；itwasahotsummer’sday，andtheperspirationpouredfromhimintorrents；andthenIsawwhatI
hadneverseenbefore，Thrasymachusblushing。Aswewerenowagreedthatjusticewasvirtueandwisdom，andinjusticeviceandignorance，Iproceededtoanotherpoint：
Well，Isaid，Thrasymachus，thatmatterisnowsettled；butwerewenotalsosayingthatinjusticehadstrength；doyouremember？
Yes，Iremember，hesaid，butdonotsupposethatIapproveofwhatyouaresayingorhavenoanswer；ifhoweverIweretoanswer，youwouldbequitecertaintoaccusemeofharanguing；thereforeeitherpermitmetohavemysayout，orifyouwouldratherask，doso，andIwillanswer’Verygood，’astheysaytostory—tellingoldwomen，andwillnod’Yes’and’No。’
Certainlynot，Isaid，ifcontrarytoyourrealopinion。
Yes，hesaid，Iwill，topleaseyou，sinceyouwillnotletmespeak。Whatelsewouldyouhave？